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-INTERVIEW-
David Poston who
for years has dedicated his life to the field of building
nuclear systems for space describes his vision of nuclear
space reactors in an interview conducted early November
2002.
Hello...David
Poston of Nuclear Systems Design Engineering Applications
Los Alamos
National Laboratory. My name is Bruce Behrhorst
Staff writer for the online publication Nuclearspace.com
website. I would like to thank you for granting us the
opportunity to speak with you today.
BB:
What is a S.A.F.E (Safe Affordable Fission Engine) and
H.O.M.E.R (Heatpipe Operated Mars Exploration Reactor)
nuclear fast reactor and what practical applications
do these dynamic high density energy systems have for
space exploration and defense?
DP:
What they are, are fission reactors that energy released
during the fission process and that energy is conducted
to heatpipes in these reactors. With heatpipes are closed
cylinders that use two phased liquid metal heat transport
to take energy from reactor core which has is fission
heat out to your power conversion (PC) from your space
reactor. So, there you would either have a heat exchanger
to provide gas to a Brayton system or maybe the heat
would go to a Stirling engine or Thermoelectric. It's
rather versatile where the energy from the reactor goes.
The bottom line is that you take the heat from the reactor
send it to a power conversion (PC) system that produces
electricity. Then this electricity can be used both
for science, whether it be high powered telecommunications
or transmissions from space or diagnostics as per for
looking for certain materials or for subsurface radar
mapping. A whole slew of missions for high power on
planet orbiting satellites and deep space interstellar
satellites and also for propulsion by using electricity
to provide power to electric thrusters to enable taking
high masses and high powers at fast speeds to the outer
planets.
BB:
Has a dynamic (as opposed to passive systems: thermoelectric
RTG, thermionic) HPS (heatpipe system) type nuclear
reactor ever been built before?
DP:
We did do a demonstration where we hooked up a heatpipe
reactor to a Stirling engine which is a dynamic system.
And that operated as expected it's still I think, in
operational state at JPL right now, it's gone thru like
50 start-ups and shut-downs. It's a rather low power
system because that's all that could be afforded on
the budget and all that was available for the Stirling.
It was actually hooked up to an electric thruster out
at JPL to demonstrate full intended power.
This
was all done with resistance heated or electrically
heated tests, which is a pretty deep subject. Let me
touch on it first, initially is that the resistance
heaters are put in place of fuel pins and they can produce
the same power distribution through the core or power
deposition through core as the fission process would.
So, thermally as far as the system is concerned it doesn't
know whether there is a fission reaction going on or
if there's just resistance heaters are in there[in reactor
core] up to just a couple of percent that's deposited
elsewhere in the system due to transport of particles
from the fission process. But overall you could essentially
demonstrate your whole systems with these strategic
resistance heated tests. So, therefore you get a high
fidelity test without having to go to the expense of
actually operating the fission powered test.
BB:
What in your estimation would be a first in-space NEP
(nuclear electric propulsion) mission of the improved
generation of a "Dynamic nuclear space reactor",
and will the HPS type reactor be the working design
for future reactor missions?
DP:
To answer the mission question. I'm more in the mode
of demonstrations is the best way to go for flight demonstrations.
Because, fission can be so important to the future in
all the things that it can do, that my guess would be
to get as simple a first mission as you can get. So,
it's a two sided sword because NASA or whoever the customer
is has to make this mission "Sporty" enough
to sell it and basically fly the mission. So, it's in
NASA's hands on the mission side, and what we can tell
them on the nuclear side is: Try to come up with a mission
with the simplest requirements as possible in terms
of power, lifetime and mass that we think we can complete
because if we try to take too big of a step. We run
the risk of failing as past programs have done over
and over because they've tried to take too big of a
first step. So, by going with simpler requirements for
the first mission then that would enable the success
of the first mission. I think the range of missions
are from, like a Mars or Lunar surface power reactor
which would be the easiest from the fission reactor's
perspective to maybe a Mars Tele-comm. Orbiter and then
the mission they're talking about now, is like a Jovian-moon
tour mission which is a little bit "Sportier"
that might be achievable and these can all be achieved
with the Heatpipe system.
BB:
Now, that three or more proof-of-concept demonstrations
have been successful could you describe the component
parts of the basic SAFE nuclear space reactor?
DP:
One of the advantages of the SAFE reactor is its lack
of components, the core module contains a heatpipe and
fuel pins and generally there are three fuel pins bonded
to a central heatpipe. So, the fuel pins conduct the
energy to the heatpipe which takes heat energy out to
the power conversion system. So, it's the fuel pins
and heatpipe, which is a module, then the grid-to-core
which is the assembly of these modules that can produce
a critical chain reaction of neutrons or a self-sustaining
safe chain reaction, to keep a self-sustaining power
source. Depending on the design between like 19 and
100 of these identical modules configured in a core.
Basically, your core is just the modules made up of
fuel pins then some sort of banding structure to keep
the modules in place then around that you have a neutron
reflector. Which reflects in neutrons that keeps them
from leaking so that you can sustain your chain reaction.
If too many neutrons leak out you can't sustain or produce
a neutron, for everyone that's generated. In your reflector
you also do your control, most of the designs have "Control
Drums" which have a neutron absorber. If you wanted
the reactor reactivity to go down, you turn this absorber
toward the core the reactivity goes down there will
be less neutrons produced per generation...
BB:
This would be the Boron (B4C)
[neutron absorber]?
DP:
Yes, so we can control reactors externally which is
what helps make them very compact, safe in accident
scenarios to follow up in another question. Besides
the core, reflectors and control, then depending on
the power conversion we might need a heat exchanger
and for the Brayton system which seems to be the front
runner right now heatpipe to gas heat exchanger that
we've designed, building and testing as a stainless
steel variety-right now. Then you need the motors for
turning the control drums and a shield and a [power]
control system [PID, fuzzy logic]. In terms of components
there aren't very many.
BB:
To follow up on the last question Molybdenum has a high
melting point in the thousands of degrees Kelvin some
of the fuel pin/heatpipe modules they get hot. Just
out of curiosity, how would you be able to turn control
drums of the reactor under those heat stresses?
DP:
The [control] drums are outside of the core that's really
what makes this easy. Because if you do have control
in the core it's gonna get hot. The drums and control
motors and all those pieces will be insulated from the
core. Between the core and the reflector we'll insulate
to whatever level we need to with multifoil vacuum insulation
to keep the temperature the reflector and the control
drum down to 800-900 Kelvin.
BB:
I seem to notice, you suggested upper limits of maybe
1000 degrees Kelvin plus. Most of the normal operating
procedure is well under 1000 degrees K range?
DP:
It is, basically you have to make sure your parts don't
distort due to the temperature. The motors will be way
above the shields and shielded from radiation as well
- they'll be cool. The temperature up there won't be
an issue. So, it's really an issue to drums, it varies
as to what the temperatures are.
BB:
Could you explain why there is a difference between
a HOMER reactor's radial absorber and that of a SAFE
reactor among other differences?
DP:
The two main differences are the HOMER's operate at
a lower temperature Boron carbide is easier to use there
because we're not so worried about chemical interactions
at temperature and perhaps the more important reason,
its stainless steel is a lot easier to machine then
Molybdenum [Mo] or Nb1Zr or whatever refractory metal
for SAFE 400. We thought we could make holes for the
Boron carbide in a stainless steel system relatively
easily where, it would take some development to make
holes Boron carbide [B4C] in the SAFE. For those two reasons, the temperature
capability and the fabricability that took us away from
[use of ] Boron carbide for SAFE even though it's a
more mass effective option.
BB:
Have you decided how the reactor body core would be,
a solid metal block or components [parts]?
DP:
Yea, that's an on going debate. Until we do more detailed
engineering and fabrication it probably won't be decided.
We like the individual modules because that makes your
testing and development a lot easier, because your building
a bunch of modules small modules you can test them easily
put them in a test reactor and pile reactor test. You
also have the ability to chose, go through and find
ones that don't look good, throw them out and bring
in ones that fit nice into the core. The modularity
is great from the perspective but the solid block "monolith'
does have some heat transfer advantages. If we can make
that relatively easily that might be the best way to
go. It's a kinda complicated issue, I guess it's unresolved
but we're sticking with the modular design at the moment.
BB:
In your view, is the SAFE reactor's 15 -1000 kW(th) range a precursor to futuristic high performance nuclear
space power systems like: Vapor core "Lightbulb"
concept, external pulse "Orion", other fast
reactors, fusion and antimatter methods, do you feel
a 'step-by-step' approach to an introduction of nuclear
power in space is a good plan?
DP:
Yes, I think it's a precursor to any of those. The main
thing we have to deal with is how to engineer systems
to handle high energy densities or high power densities
and no matter what your going to do really, the key
is just stepping up with knowing how to deal with these
systems. So, I see a stepping point to higher power
fast reactors and then in the future, many of the technologies
you mentioned - yes.
BB:
What is your preference in electrical rocket thrusters
i.e., Hall thrusters, VASMIR, pulse inductive, Hughes
Deep space 1 etc.?
DP:
I don't focus too much, but I tend to like things that
are proven as most people do. That for the near term
missions, going with ion thrusters is the way to go.
VASMIR is a great, great concept that needs...more work
but I like the potential it offers. Again, I'm not close
enough to an expert to really talk about those issues.
BB:
In light of U.S. House Appropriations committee recommending
a decrease of $10 million from the nuclear electric
propulsion program and a decrease of $ 7 million from
the nuclear power system program, is LANL's nuclear
space reactor research funded well?
DP:
No, it's not well funded, we have been working on internal
funds, nights and weekends in a lot of cases to get
to where we are now. And we still have an internal funding
source and some funding from NASA and DOE. The new Nuclear
Systems Initiative [NSI], there's going to be a step
change in effort nationally and hopefully at Los Alamos.
The reductions... we're not concerned about those as
much as the continuing resolutions - to be frank. Any
new "Start" program that makes it through
the house and senate is great, there almost always cut.
The actual dollar amount - we're not as concerned about.
Because we're confident we can have a program that can
demonstrate early on that we're going to be successful
so, we'll still be able to sustain the program.
BB:
You seem to be developing these reactors for a planetary
on site NEP system or for in-flight NEP systems. Do
you ever venture into direct hydrogen heating for thrust
[NTP] systems?
DP:
Yea sure...I started out in this field looking at direct
nuclear thermal propulsion and came to the conclusion
that it's a really second generation technology or at
least a much harder to develop technology. So, that's
when I decided to focus on something that I felt we
could really do and be highly confident we could complete
a program. Because nuclear fission power or any kinda
nuclear power besides radio isotope in space is just
been burdened by a lot of interest but no one ever completing
a successful program. So, I focused on something that
was as-easy-as you can do, but still do something useful.
BB:
As recently as the first week of this month NASA has
awarded the first in a series of nuclear space initiatives
to the Boeing company. Boeing energy systems and rocketdyne
propulsion and power have teamed up with JPL/Glenn Research/Honeywell/Swales
Aerospace, University of Auburn, and Texas A&M to
develop specialized power conversion (PC) unites. How
do you feel having these Stirling or Brayton PC units
attached to HPS Heat Pipe space nuclear reactor Systems?
DP:
My first preference is which ever one will work and
highest efficiency. From what I know about thermal electrics.
We can make those work. They are working on higher efficiency
ones. The Stirling work recently has been very good,
Stirling technology and Glenn Research Center have done
good job with producing actual engines and then the
Brayton work also has a lot of industrial support behind
it. Thats the great thing that's happened over the last
10-20 years - really, is that there hasn't been a whole
lot of progress in space fission reactor per se. There
has been advances in power conversion. It's making the
job of the reactor designer easier which is exactly
what we need to get something successful on the first
mission.
BB:
You mentioned traditional Stirling PC units in some
of your publications [papers]. Is thermal acoustic [technology]
workable?
DP:
Thermal acoustic is a great potential application, it's
a little bit early to decide whether, if its actually
do-able for a mission in say 5-6 years. In theory, on
paper and also with some of the experiments they've
been doing I think, it's a good potential long term
option.
BB:
What's it like being a nuclear space scientist since
very few people work in this field? How did you arrive
at your level in your profession?
DP:
It is the greatest - I love it. I became a nuclear engineer
when I saw all the great potential nuclear energy can
provide both on Earth and in space. I went to work at
General Electric Co. I got exposed to space nuclear
power and decided that was a really good thing to commit
to because I could do so much good for humanity. In
terms of expanding into space. I decided I would make
it my goal to pursue this field and get a Ph.D. in this
field and come to Los Alamos Labs. Which in general
is the leader in this field since it was initiated in
the 1950's. I love coming to work everyday, I couldn't
be happier in my job and it shows in working a lot of
extra hours. Most people would enjoy...we bring in summer
students. I brought in several summer students in the
past years, they're always very enthusiastic and excited
about this field.
So,
it's something that I would encourage young people to
think about it's probably one of the most exciting areas
to work in.
BB:
Do you have a name or a cartoon mascot for your HPS
designed nuclear reactor?
DP:
No, we do for the "Homer" reactor it has a
four faceted name.
BB:
Like Homer Simpson the cartoon character?
DP:
Yea...Homer Simpson is one because basically that's
just simple and robust (giggle) that's the attributes
we take from Homer Simpson. Then an implication of a
"Home run" with "Homer" is a positive
connotation we like. Then Homer in terms of the Greek
author with the "Iliad and the Odyssey" exploring
unknown worlds is a very forward looking connotation.
Then Homer Hickam in the movie,
"October
Sky". He's based on dreaming about spaceflight
in that movie. He has actually come to visit our hardware
[lab]. So, it was a perfect choice because of those
four reasons. The S.A.F.E. Acronym, there wasn't as
much thought put into that one, actually NASA came up
with that acronym - we don't have any.
BB:
Would you like one?
DP:
Sure, yea.
BB:
I'll send you a little graphic character for [SAFE reactor]
that.
BB:
Having a perfect record of U.S. Launches and successful
space operation of nuclear powered sources in space
(there's only been one SNAP 10A, it had to be shut down
for reasons other than reactor core malfunction) and
over 45 years experience in the field isn't this proven
technology?
DP:
Yea, it's definitely proven technology. As far as the
reactor goes, nothing we're doing hasn't been proven
for forty years. I mean, the power conversion side is
debatable depending what you chose is proven technology.
As far as the fission goes it's actually very simple:
You put Uranium together in a certain geometry and get
fission power out of it. There is nothing magic about
it.
Safety
wise: The two key points that get across is before this
reactor 'turns-on' it's not radioactive, it's typical
to Background radiation.The true statement it's equivalent
to background radiation.
So,
that's the first point, that this thing is completely
safe before it operates.
Part
2 of the question: Is you don't want it to operate before
it's suppose to. So, that's done by using redundant
controls similar to almost any potentially hazardous
engineering system, to insure it doesn't 'turn on' and
insuring during any postulated accident whether it be
transported or launched it won't 'turn-on' or become
'critical'. And then at that point [when you want to]
it produces radioactivity, becomes radioactive. But,
even in the cases it does 'turn-on' if you look at the
probabilities of events it's still not a significant
health risk to any personnel or the public.
It
mostly stems from the general phobia you might call
it; of nuclear systems. I think on paper and in practice
these systems are incredibly safe.
BB:
From what I have surmised the Boron poison drums are
essentially pointed in next to the core [central axis]
in 'Shut off' position [mode] and then they turn outward
[from central axis] 'in operation' mode. You use two
types of fuels UN and UO2. When
in space the fuel is actually inserted in the core block?
DP:
No, we're launching it with the fuel in the core. Yea,
but that's a back up option. You can save a lot of mass.
You can make these systems lighter if you could keep
the fuel outside of the core until you want to use and
insert it. But, it's not worth reliability impact of
having to insert the fuel to save the mass. Because
right now we're putting up more on Uranium in the core.
That's making it a lot heavier because then we have
to put in more fuel to offset the absorption of those
materials. It's kinda a positive feedback situation,
where the more fuel you add the more poison you have
to add; then the more poison you add the more fuel you
have to add. We could save mass by launching the fuel,
say in a canister next to the core, then inserting it
when we reached our safe destination. I think it's a
more prudent choice to make the reactor safe so that
it won't 'turn-on' even with the fuel in the core until
you turn those drums out.
In
closing I asked him about print or online materials
on more work being done in this area. He said at the
moment they just don't have it in the budget to place
current information online.
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